Talk:Main Page

Signing your entries in talk pages

I'm not sure where the best place to put this is, but I want to remind everybody to sign their entries in talk pages, two dashes followed by 4 tildes '--~~~~' or just click the button that is second from the right on the top of the edit box. --Mel 10:15, 12 Jan 2006 (EST)

Also, when you're replying to something on a talk page, feel free to use this fancy feature (watch start of line)

It works really well! just add one colon (:) at the start of the lines more than the previous reply had! --Llanor 17:30, 5 February 2007 (CST)

Top Mud Sites

Is there a requirement to link to top mud sites main page? If not why are we doing it? We don't link anything other than outland.org that prominantly other avatar related sites are on a differnt page, we don't even really have a precedent linking non-avatar sites except in user pages. Although I encourge the sentiment of having people vote for Avatar, I don't agree with displaying it so promenintly. But in a fit of moderator modesty I'm asking people to discuss it and not just making a change myself! --Mel 21:27, 11 Jan 2006 (EST)

I like the idea of having a link users can click on to vote for Avatar right on the main page. Here's my main reasons:

• voting is important: it gets new people to try our mud
• people fail to vote not because they hate avatar, but because they forget.
• The official avatar website links to us right off their main page, so it's nice of us return the favor.

The outland.org layout probably doesn't do the best job of reminding people to vote. The vote button is off to the side, and you have to scroll down a ways to see it. Plus, who goes to outland.org all that frequently anyways? I know the only reason I go there is to see how quickly the AvatarWiki is climbing the "Top Web Links" :). Our site, on the other hand, gets a lot of repeat visits because it has a lot of useful information. So if every time someone visits the wiki they have a small chance of being reminded to vote, and we make it easy for them to do so, then I think we're doing something positive. That being said, I don't think that we need to link to the front page of TopMudSites. Who bothers to go there anyways, other than when they're voting? Just people who are looking for a new mud to try, I guess. I doubt many of the people who come to our site are looking to find a new mud to play. --Waite 12:46, 12 Jan 2006 (EST)

Can we leave the voting link and get rid of the link to their main page?--Mel 14:33, 12 Jan 2006 (EST)

I just figured that, if someone was curious about what Top Mud Sites was, then they could click the link and take a look for themselves. I didn't imagine that this might be a problem but I can see some merit to what you're saying here. I'm with Waite here on leaving the voting link, at least, for sake of convenience. I'd have no complaints about removing this link to their main page. In fact, since I added it, perhaps I'll go ahead and (tentatively) remove it. If anyone wants it back, then, well, there's still plenty of room here for debate. ::::--Dave Garber 15:30, 12 Jan 2006 (EST)

Creating new pages

(Sorry if you don't like that I deleted all the discussion from before on this subject, but you were talking nonsense.) In the Search box, type the exact title you wish to use for your wiki page and press 'Go'. If this page doesn't exist yet, the option 'Create This Page' will be clearly visible after you've pressed 'Go'. Click that. Wow, it's that simple. --Llanor 17:17, 5 February 2007 (CST)

Contact Information

It may be helpful to provide some means of contacting those folks in charge of this site.

Also, I recently posted a table of quick ways to increase one's gold supply, which I and others have found handy. I titled this article Treasure-Hunting and put it under the Miscellaneous category. I was wondering if perhaps there was a better name for it, a more appropriate place to put it, a better way to organize its content, or a better way to integrate it with the rest of the site. Or if it's just dandy like it is. Anyway...

Well contacting Waite or I is a perfectly reasonable idea, but don't worry so much about what you think is right and what you think is wrong. This is a Wiki, the very idea is that everybody participates, and if somebody thinks something should be moved, they move it. I think you chose the perfect location for the page, and I think it's great. --Mel 17:51, 5 May 2005 (EDT)

If you really want to contact a user of this wiki, just edit their talk page.

Mass Confusion

I don't mean to put a damper on the momentum that I see this website generating, but with that momentum come some problems. As an example, take a look at the category Lowmort 1-10 gear. I've just spent some time working on updating that category, but there are still some glaring problems. Muddy boots don't provide +1 dexterity, they provide -1 dexterity, making them useless. Neither those boots nor the goblin boots of fleeing are very good for use at this level. Fur-lined boots are much better and provide a small amount of bonus armor. Yes, I know, I could just add it, but let me continue. The golden unicorn horn (in the offhand slot) is a weapon, and unless you have dual, which nobody gets before level 10, using a weapon in your offhand is pretty useless. A shield would be more useful there. Any shield. For the held slot, the orb of knowledge is missing. Most true newbies (no alts, no spells, not perfect gear) won't be able to get a red eyed jewel until at least level 15 or so, therefore the orb of knowledge is still a good item to list. As for the other gear listed at the bottom there, blue lizard tongues no longer exist and buck skin gloves are listed twice. Then there is a matter of all the items not yet listed which would be useful (the other 'enchanted' weapons besides longswords, the idiot crown, and the pixie crossbow, for instance) or even the items that would be nice to have for the sake of completeness, and the fact that almost every page has different formatting. It's just not feasible for everyone to try to organize things as they see fit without any thought to future organization. It's one thing to say 'if you don't like something, fix it, but things are getting to be a real mess.

When I first saw this page go up, I thought it was a really awesome idea. I still think it's a great idea, but I think it could use some more moderation. To compare this to what was formerly Aejase, here there is the potential for far more information, but the information there was more accurate and far better organized. This also has the potential to be well organized, but the implementors need to step in and moderate what's being written in here. At the very least, it would be great if all if the information was checked for accuracy and formatted the same way. Perhaps there could be a page at the top of each category entitled 'template.' This way, a default format can be set for areas, gear pages, mob pages, and whatever else is going to be stored here. Don't get me wrong, I don't mean to flame this site, it makes great strides toward storing information about Avatar in an organized, collected, secure and open manner. I just don't want to see it become abandoned because people get frustrated by some of the innacurate entries and poorly organized categories that exist.

-Ilthik, July 19th 2005

Hi Ilthik (and the rest),

Thanks for taking it upon yourself to help clean up the level 1-10 gear category. In general some of the categories are still a mess from when we initially populated them with lists of gear. I intend the "lowmort ??-?? gear" categories to contain misc. gear that would be useful for a variety of characters. Stuff like healing potions, orb of faerie magic, etc. Other gear can go into more specialized categories (hit, tank, mana). Lowmort 1-10 gear is a bit different from the rest, because characters don't really wear specialized gear that low. Instead everyone runs around in a mix of hit, tank, and level gear. As far as some of your specific suggestions, I'll tackle them in list form:

muddy boots: good catch. I've never got this piece before, so I had no clue.

goblin boots of fleeing: while it might not have the same ac boost as the fur-lined boots (which I've also never got before), I would argue that they're still useful to newbies. The +move modifier can be useful to newbs who like to run around and explore, and because they're a higher level they have better base ac than the mudschool gear.

golden unicorn horn as offhand: you have a good point that lowbies don't get dual, so offhanding a weapon isn't horribly useful. However, this weapon gives +2 hr & +2 dr, so it will help a newbie hit harder and more often with their main wield. Your point that a shield could be more useful is valid. It would probably be a good idea to write up a discussion of these points in the golden unicorn horn page, along with a link to a nice lowbie shield.

orb of knowledge: definitely deserves a page. should also be linked to from red-eyed jewel so the less adventurous newbs know they can settle for something easier to get. However, I would like to think that with the info that this site provides, a true newb would be able to slay the dracolich before level 15.

blue lizard tongues no longer exist: this is a recent development. fortunately I've already created categories for grandfathered gear, so all you need to do is switch what category this piece is in.

buck skin gloves listed twice: someone goofed, but easy enough to fix

missing gear/inaccurate entries: I'll admit there's more work to be done on this category, and just about every other category. Maybe I'm just being optimistic, but I feel that inaccuracies in the wiki will be ironed out as more people come to use our system and more people become comfortable making changes. I'm definitely willing to do my part. Also, keep in mind that aejase wasn't always perfect. Even before half of the gear it listed became gfed, there were some odd entries that no one could fix. How many times did you see a newbie asking how to get benlad's axe? At least with this site, you don't have to wait around for the moderator to make changes.

organization/layout/format: Mediawiki does have support for making page templates. I never bothered because I figured as long as all the right info is present, who cares how it looks? But maybe I was wrong. I'll look into how templates work when I get out of work today, and try to make a few templates like you suggested: one for gear, mobs, area, etc.

Again, I appreciate your concerns and suggestions, along with the work you've already done. Most, if not all, of the problems you pointed out are pretty easy to fix. If we all keep working on this wiki together, it will only get better and better.

-Waite

Waite,

That's a good point about the moderators slowing down the process and Aejase being out of date. I remember just before it went down that last time that Khazaad was really behind on entries. My biggest concern was that more people contributing would create a bigger mess as everyone tried to add their own format to the list. I just see the format becoming an issue as this site grows and people are looking to add things, but don't necessarily know how to write down all the information that they have. While the information is still there, it may become a jungle to navigate. For example, imagine looking at a piece of code or an html document without any line breaks versus one that has been done neatly and carefully.

I guess I'll take the liberty of starting up a format page to collect the different formats for areas and items. Please add to it as I'm sure I'll miss something. I'm not sure how you'd like to go about organizing the categories yet so I'll let you play with that.

-Ilthik

Waste Disposal

While adding content, I and others have managed to gradually generate all sorts of categories and pages that ought to be deleted, either because their titles were improperly capitalized or spelled or because their information was transferred elsewhere or was organized differently or whatnot. If I recall correctly, every category here except for Miscellaneous and every page here except for the Main Page can (and, I'd say, should) be deleted. This can only be done by a Sysop; otherwise, I'd take care of it myself rather than mentioning it here. Anyway, thanks much! --Dave Garber 23:42, 19 Jan 2006 (EST)

I started, there are a lot to delete, I'll do more later --Mel 16:19, 20 Jan 2006 (EST)

Many thanks, Mel! It might be good to check these two links regularly, perhaps monthly. Also, once again, I re-uploaded a few new maps that I had created after making minor changes to them. Please feel free to delete all but the one newest version of each of these maps so that you don't have bunches of useless 20-70kb .GIF files cluttering up your server. Once again, I'd delete all of these older versions myself if I could but your WIKI tells me that only SysOps can do this. Sorry that I keep creating so much junk for you to clean up (hee-hee). Anyway, thanks again! ::--Dave Garber 01:58, 25 Jan 2006 (EST)

On the topic of waste disposal, I've noticed a lot of unnecessary categories, namely the "Quests in [area]" categories. The same goes for the "Mobs in [area]" and "Gear in [area]" categories. Since only a fraction of all areas have notable mobs, gear, or quests, having all these empty categories just makes looking at a page like Ticket Quests much more confusing. I propose that instead of making "Quests in" subcategories, we just add sections for quests, gear, and mobs right in the area's category, thereby skipping the "Quests in" category all together. It's not like they have any content other than links to the content pages anyway. This way, the master lists of quests &c. will only list ones that... well... exist. --Neyne 03:49, 25 February 2006 (EST)

(1) In keeping with Wiki policy about filing pages only in their lowest possible subcategor(ies) within this Wiki's category-trees, there is no longer (as of this afternoon) a master list of all ticket quests, just as there are no longer master lists of either all gear or all mobs; each ticket quest page is now found only in its respective area subcategor(ies). (2) As for all of these empty subcategories, I expect that very few will remain empty over time. I disagree that there is so little gear and such worth listing; in fact, I expect that most areas (except for a few "special" ones like Sanctum) provide at least one piece of noteworthy gear, which is usually obtained by killing a mob, by giving a mob a ticket, or perhaps even through some of both. In fact, to test this theory a little, I just clicked on a bunch of random areas on Aejase and had trouble finding any area categories there without at least one mob listed in them. So, although these subcategories may not be immediately necessary, I believe that they will almsot all become so as time passes. Also, (3) I favor our current procedure of using subcategories rather than sections to list all of these. Anyway, just my thoughts on this, for whatever they may be worth. --Dave Garber 16:06, 25 February 2006 (EST)

I appreciate your taking out the trash today, Waite (hee hee). Boy, it sure can build up! Even with your deletions today, I still count 153 junk categories and 106 junk pages. Yikes! --Dave Garber 17:48, 10 March 2006 (EST)

Yeah, it's pretty tedious to individually delete each page, but it does help us out in the long run so I'm more than happy to do it. As a computer scientist my first instinct is to write an sql script to automate the process, but I guess I'll play it safe and do it the way I'm supposed to. It is Mel's server after all, I'm sure he wouldn't appreciate me mucking around -too- much.

BTW Dave, can you post instructions for finding your unused images? Special:Unusedimages doesn't work as well as it should.

--Waite 19:49, 10 March 2006 (EST)

Ah! Actually, I believe that this special category is working properly. The Wiki is actually using all images other than those four in this category that you deleted today (thanks!), though some of these images have multiple versions of themselves stored and the Wiki is using (or should be using) only the newest version of each image. Uhhh, if that makes any sense (yipes!). Probably the best way to handle this is by going to Special:Newimages and then clicking on each image listed there one by one (sorry!) and then, for each image, looking at the bottom of its page to see if multiple versions are stored and then, if there are, using (del) links beside older versions to delete them one by one. My condolences on what a hassle I imagine that this will be! Also, I should mention that I'm currently redoing a few older maps to space out their rooms a bit more and, with new contest areas being added soon, I'm afraid that I'll be updating even more existing maps in coming weeks. So be forewarned (my apologies!). --Dave Garber 20:19, 10 March 2006 (EST)

While we're talking about maps, let me draw my own map for the chalmus area. I need to figure out how to draw maps for the lordwiki anyway, so I might as well write the map for my own area while I'm at it. I figured I'd give you the warning before you take the time to map out my area.

--Waite 20:29, 10 March 2006 (EST)

Awesome! :) I seem to remember that I mapped my own area first, too; it can certainly help to start by working with an area that you already know very well. In any case, your area is now off my list and all yours. Have fun! And I look forward to seeing your finished product. --Dave Garber 20:41, 10 March 2006 (EST)

As for empty categories, I marked for deletion a few selected categories that I verified would not ever have any contents (because the areas in question did not have a single mob or piece of gear or whatever in them). Actually, I did this a long time ago. But, while I'm editing this page, I thought that I'd mention it. --Dave Garber 02:25, 7 February 2007 (CST)

I made a template that you can insert simply by editing in the text {{Delete}} that categorizes a page into Category:Delete and clearly marks the page as one to be deleted. Should make it easier for the admins to do their job, no? ^_^ --Llanor 02:54, 6 February 2007 (CST)

Thanks a bunch, MooNFisH! It should simplify things a bit. I need to learn how to use those Templates, myself--they're pretty darn cool! --Dave Garber 02:19, 7 February 2007 (CST)

SPAM?

I just found two pages modified with the following text: <pre><div id="wyikol" style="overflow:auto; height: 1px; ">[http://f79asd3454dfsdf.com 5656456222]</div></pre> The two users (Dwazry and Zhrvtx) each modified one page with this text (see Arbalest and Category:Padmasa histories). We might be seeing some SPAM hitting our wiki. If this is legitimate I appologize but I saw no reason for such text when it is not even visible! --Ylem 11:37, 27 February 2006 (CST)

Some custom insertion buttons

See all those edit buttons above the edit box? It would be nice if some of those pertained to the Avatar Wiki. For example, it's monotonous to code a bunch of mob/object/area emplates for however many pages you have to do, so some buttons could add those templates, appropriately hyperlinked, into the editbox for us to use. Giving us one-click access to template code would also help standardize the page layouts. If you're interested, the appropriate code lies in EditPage.php (all the way at the bottom). --Neyne 20:59, 1 March 2006 (EST)

Information Gathering

While I know how to get item information (cast identify on them) I see people putting in something called 'base'. I'm not sure I know how to get that accurately. Any help on that? How about getting detailed mob information (such as alignment, level, flags, etc - see Merline for an example). Is this a Lord ability? I tend to not do mobs here because I'm not sure how to get that information. Perhaps a page on here on how to get this type of information and (as Neyne suggested) a button for templates. I'm willing to post up the template I use for items that was crafted from Dave Garber's entries. Since I'm a programmer I'm working on a program where I just enter the 'cast id' results, the text viewed when looking at it, the mob, and the area and it spits out the wiki text and all I have to fill in and comments,directions. I'd be willing to share it if there is any interest. --Ylem

"Base" refers to the base ac of the item. This is information that you can obtain from identify ("Armor class is 7"). It's referred to as "base" so as to distinguish it from special ac modifiers ("Modifies armor class by -35 continuous."). The psi spell Bioscan is used to determine information about a mob.

Yup. Bioscan yields a lot of this information. To find a mob's level, I usually kill it and identify its corpse; charming it and then looking at your group table may also work. A mob's level determines the level(s) of the gear it carries (see Object Level). And an armor-type object's level(s) determines its base armor class range (see Armor Values). I hope that this info helps you a little. Thanks for your contributions! ::--Dave Garber 15:15, 3 March 2006 (EST)

Navigation Panel

We can change what links appear in that navigation panel on the left side of the screen. Suggestions? I don't want to make it too cluttered, so just a few choice links that would be more useful than "donations" or "random page" Waite 10:59, 11 May 2007 (CDT)

Future Changes

I think I'm the only one left really updating this site. Unless you can think of something else that is majorly missing the only thing I'll be doing is mapping hero areas that are unmapped (Silmavar, Necro Tower, and Frozen Wastes).

--Ylem 16:10, 21 July 2007 (CDT)

Silmarvar

I have Silmarvar & the Frozen Wastes maps already done. Am just trying to figure out how to add stuff correctly. I could not figure out how to access the Lord wiki :/

Morague

To add a new map click the "Upload file" link in the toolbox on the left side of the screen, and upload the map. Then create a new page (like Frozen Wastes Map) and display the image there. Take a look at some already existing map page (Avatar Mudschool Map) if you'd like an example to copy.

As far as accessing the lord wiki, log into the mud with your lord lvl character and type "help webpasswords". That will show you the username and password you're supposed to use to access that site.

Waite 08:23, 27 July 2007 (CDT)

Lord Wiki

Now that the veil of lord secrecy has been lifted I think it would be nice if the two wikis were merged. Not sure how much work that would be though so just a thought :) --Everman

Upgrade Woes

I looks like uploading a file is broken (not public). Cannot upload maps. I posted a personal to Melanarchy but no response. Can this be fixed? --Ylem 14:26, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

All better. Waite 21:48, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

-- For small areas, a room-by-room interactive map is still possible.--Caoimhe 11:40, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Random page

I know some Wiki sites have a "Random Page" function that is actually a really cool way to see some of the obscure pages that exist on the Wiki. Any way we can enable that on this site? --Shalineth 16:05, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Discussion Of Pulse Posting

Today Pulse posted asking for a restriction on descriptions of rooms and mobs on the wiki. I'd like to have a discussion on this as I think it is in our best interested to play nicely. Obviously we are providing a benefit for the community but I don't want to step on any toes. We obviously have a lot of mob descriptions on the wiki and removing them would be an ordeal. What is the balance? Waite? Melanarchy? You two are the owners of this site and I'll let you dictate the rules. --Ylem 02:38, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing this out Ylem. I don't think we need to do anything drastic like stripping all descs from the wiki. But we should follow Pulse's advice. If you plan on mapping an area and documenting it in the wiki, please make a good-faith effort to check with the builder responsible for that area before doing any bulk replication of room & mob descriptions. I feel like the occasional description here & there is ok, especially if it pertains to a quest, or some other interesting facet of the area in question. But as Pulse suggested, be polite towards the builders. In general, I don't think it's a horrible idea to leave something to the imagination. It's more exciting to discover these little details in-game than it is to find them on the wiki anyway, right?

Waite 04:27, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

i exchanged a msg with pulse about the map i recently added for trans forest in this regard and he said maps are no problem at all. he seemed to generally echo waite, in that he likes the wiki and doesn't mind things being copied into it but when done extensively permission should be sought. --3nki 17:41, 24 October 2009 (UTC)